Mr D Brian

that reduces human beings to a disembodied head with inputs/outputs... this is where you end up...

Naomj Fisher's views re autonomy + relationships.

Tbf, I do agree with her about this. If we had a education system that understood humans, we'd have fewer distressed children and fewer diagnoses. The conflict with LD is real, but if you only look at it through that lens, you miss something important. Honestly, if I see another edu book that /1

The assertion that teachers can meet the needs of these children is bizarre given the state we are in and very much at odds with Naomi Fisher's view of the education system. The podcast really did little to probe her thinking. They were a bit starstruck!

I'm not sure the MH comparison really holds up when severe mental health problems are so common in autistic people, including those without a learning disability. The suicide rate is high.

SBC on suicidality in autistic people.

and it's happening in our schools on our watch. You write brilliantly about LD people, but I'm not convinced by your writing on the other group. Is that unfair?

had their voices heard and that has affected research priorities. But this isn't a zero sum game, and it's easy to see (and it's evident already) the needs of people who have serious difficulties being downplayed. The treatment of people with a LD in our society is a disgrace, but so is this /4

assertion that teachers are well-placed to support them does not survive contact with reality, and throws a lot of vulnerable people under a bus. I fully understand the difficulty of reconciling the varying needs of people currently receiving an autism diagnosis and that those with a LD have not /3

everywhere. Some people have none, others have a few, and a small number of people have a lot. Whether or not these people require support is dependent on how these traits interact with the environment, and for a number of these people the school environment is hostile and disabling. UF's /2

Asperger himself noted that, what he defined as autistic traits, were common in the whole population. And it's noteworthy that the initial approach in his clinic in the 1930s was not to classify them as a diagnosis. So, I suppose they existed as descriptors. Once you notice this, you see them /1

Like Alex Pretti and Renee Good.

Very good thread... this discussion will throw some highly vulnerable people under a bus while people cheer from thd sidelines.

Most of the autistic children I have taught did not have an EHCP. An ASD diagnosis doesn't even necessitate presence on the SEND register. Are our schools less hospitable to humans?

I'd agree with her that we don't really have a good understanding. The lack of mention of the suicide rate/MH + eating disorders etc. amongst the second group is a serious omission.

My kid asked his psychiatrist why he had become so unwell. He talked at length about how the school model of education is a fairly recent invention and is fundamentally incompatible with his needs.

Improve education and transitional support for autistic people to prevent death by suicide, say experts Suicide in autistic people originates in the inequalities they face across their lives, starting in childhood, and spanning education to employment, and health

Hi @utafrith.bsky.social - very disappointed that you omitted to mention the suicide stats for autistic people in the TES. This isn't solely in teachers' gift to manage. www.cam.ac.uk/research/new...

early childhood and the ordinary school environment have caused him to become severely unwell. And, it may be that, with appropriate support and the right environment, that diagnosis might be less relevant in the future. I'd be happy with that.

I suppose the difference between us might be that, whatever the circumstances, a diagnosis is crucial for your child, whereas, for mine, he would likely not have needed one had I home educated him. All the diagnosis means for him is that the interaction between traits that have been stable since /1

the usual services to manage.

Well,when do we decide that a person is tall, and at what height does the environment become less hospitable? It's an imperfect analogy for autism without a LD, but I suppose my personal (and crude) guide is that it has to have a WTF quality to it - that by definition it is beyond the capacity of

Yes, I think part of the problem is that the traits are so common (as Asperger said, they were an advantage in e.g. science), so it's easy for people to identify them in themselves. Also, I've heard Francesca Happe talk about them as operating in the same way as the genes that control for height.

Improve education and transitional support for autistic people to prevent death by suicide, say experts Suicide in autistic people originates in the inequalities they face across their lives, starting in childhood, and spanning education to employment, and health

Yes, very interesting - you might be forgiven for thinking that autistic people without a LD barely require support. CW: suicide. www.cam.ac.uk/research/new...

And there's no mention of this...
www.cam.ac.uk/research/new...

the diagnosis is all you've got to communicate that you need support. Interestingly, despite my child having v different needs, I also believe that the public conception of autism trivialises my child's needs.

Yes, I think there's a lot in this, and agree that we are very much at the beginning of our understanding. I'm not overly wedded to a particular diagnosis, but think that UF downplays some of the worst outcomes. I don't know - when there's so little help and your so desperate - it feels like the /1

SEND Reform Reflections, part 1 – ‘Presence vs. Participation’  Or, ‘When is inclusion not really inclusion?’  I set aside an entire evening to read the SEND reforms consultation but ended up, in that first sitting, only getting as far as page 8. I got stuck on some peculiar wording and ended up down a rabbit hole of research papers, emailing European research organisations, and wondering whether or not I’d already lost the plot when I wasn’t even out of the introduction.

SEND Reform Reflections, part 1 – ‘Presence vs. Participation’ 

Or, ‘When is inclusion not really inclusion?’  I set aside an entire evening to read the SEND reforms consultation but ended up, in that first sitting, only getting as far as page 8. I got stuck on some peculiar wording and ended up…

Agree with your point about those who need the highest level of support, but worth considering that outcomes aren't great for others either. If we wish to tackle this, it's important that vulnerable people aren't dismissed.

I think her mistake is to presume that the "hypersensitive" group can have their needs met with some resilience building, and that teachers know best.

Apart from the historic stuff, they got rid because clinicians couldn't distinguish between Asperger's, HF autism and PDD-NOS (and, I think, childhood disintegrative disorder was another).

I often find people who are v knowledgeable about SEND more than a little clueless in this area - as you know, there's a limited amount that can be understood from reading a book on it.

Btw, there's a sensible conversation to be had about this, but I doubt we can get there without engaging with the experiences of different people. My issue with UF is that she downplay the difficulties of some (SBC has likened the suicide problem as equivalent to the infected blood scandal). /1