A penitent who is loud

Hm. Tricky. Markiona is a character I felt was best dealt with with big powerful blows.

I'm not trying to therapyspeak. I'm asking you a sincere question. You aren't *involved*. Why do you feel this strongly?

I mean, no, I think it's perfectly reasonable to oppose ethnic cleansing. I do. No few Israelis do.

That doesn't mean deciding you hate "all Israeli citizens." Hell, why assume that individual anecdotes of Israelis being shitty accurately reflect an entire populace of millions?

I have a PROBLEM with the settlements. Having a problem is not what you described above. What you described above was passionate, zealous, unhealthy hatred.

Ask yourself: why do I feel this way?

Furthermore: You assume I am ambivalent. I am not. You are mistaking a lack of hatred for ambivalence. Hatred is not useful here, and will help no one.

in all seriousness: what's your go-to weapon?

Seriously - I'm asking you this because I think you need to examine it yourself. Has Israel - a country of millions - wronged you personally? I'm assuming not, though I may be mistaken. If not, ask yourself why you feel this way, and who had a vested interest in making you feel it.

Pause.

Ask yourself if this is healthy, first off? Why do you hate Israel and all Israelis this much?

Use the specter. Abandon your pride.

A: Apparently not white enough for Nazis not to kill us.
B: You do understand that there were Jews across the Middle East who were already facing second-class status in their homes, were expelled from said homes & fled to Israel, and who now make up a significant portion of the Israeli right?

In fact, you especially need to account for their attitudes because they currently occupy a position of power and are the party who need to make the most concessions.

Whether or not Israel is *justified* has nothing to do with what we're discussing, which is the history & attitudes that sustain the conflict & compel parties on all sides to take manifestly counterproductive actions.

Zionists don't need to be "justified" to have opinions you need to account for.

I would gently encourage you to read up more about Hamas' plan, statements, & ideological positions.

Even if we go away from Hamas for a second the most recent Palestinian constitutional draft was explicitly Arab & Islamist, relegating Christianity to a secondary place (& Jews pointedly absent).

*whisper* Lies of P is basically Bloodborne 2

If anything, the Brits wanted the Arabs to win the 48 war! British officers armed, trained and even led Jordan's army!

B: Because Palestine is largely self-identified as an Arab, Muslim nation and Israel as a largely Jewish nation, and therefore each faction absorbs existing sectarian rivalries.

A: Ok, that's just... not a factually accurate description of the founding of Israel, not even a little. Are you familiar with the... idk, entire history of the various aaliyot and the Old Yishuv, the various ethnic nationalist tensions in the Levant prior to the founding of Israel, etc?

Firefly is like Bloodborne.

It's a vibe, more than anything else, and people wanting to go back to that well are drawn to the vibe over any pressing need to revisit its plot.

That is in fact exactly what it is. What's the basis of your stating otherwise?

(Before you say anything, there simply are no "Jewish Palestinians," so I do hope you're not going to appeal to their existence?)

2: That being said, BECAUSE myself and others in this thread have been taking a historical lens to it, we are well aware that antipathy towards Jews in the Middle East significantly precedes the current situation of unquestioned Israeli might - that Israeli bellicose paranoia is a RESPONSE to it.

Part of the way one copes with this is attempting to remain clinical, and to understand the fact that everyone involved is doing things for reasons that make rational sense to them. Israelis are not orcs, and Palestinians are not monsters. They're just people trapped in a shitty sectarian conflict.

Well you'd be pleased to know it's nowhere near 400k+ according to most consensus estimations, last I checked, unless things have significantly skyrocketed since nobody's looking.

1: Ok, with all sincerity and respect, I think you are making an inaccurate assumption that others here do not share your distress. I can't speak to anyone else here but I have been following I/P, including things like settler atrocities, my entire life.

I get the impression this is newer for you?

I mean that didn't stop historical wars!

If we're making emotional appeals, do you think that Jews see any shortage of antisemitic atrocities directed against Jews at the hands of people claiming to fight for Palestine?

My point is not parity, it is "do you think perhaps that existing bigotry colors the MENA's opinion of Israel?"

I invite you to read about the history of Jews in the Middle East.

It's not a nice history.

Pre-Great War states with the capacity to feel confident doing so would have probably invaded Iran a half-dozen times over by now.

We have learned that war is a sufficiently ghastly expense many sensible people only want to launch it at dire need. Meanwhile, the Right just rejects such reasoning.

(To be clear, THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT FOR WAR.

It is, perhaps, an argument that in some respects Iran is significantly more free to act than we are - until their government collapses - willing to soak much more severe costs to pursue clearly ideologically and strategically important goals.)

The end result is an inherently unstable situation where one party simply is willing to risk far higher costs than the other is willing to pay, so they'll keep escalating until they pay a price.

And it's proven difficult for us to extract such a price in a significant enough fashion indirectly.

What I'm saying is the religious part is irrelevant. Iran's actions are valid casus belli in themselves by most historical standards.

Why they do it is secondary. But we are not willing to pay the costs of war, both here and abroad, save at utter need Iran can't put America in, so we let it slide.

Much of the developed world have learned the lessons of caution about acting on ostensibly valid casus belli from, especially, the First World War, recognizing that the human cost foreign & domestic is often beyond what we are willing to pay.

Iran doesn't care, & exploits that ruthlessly.