A penitent who is loud

not in any way harmful to actually know and actually great for providing context to the behaviour of states and militaries, but public understanding of them is so poor that you end up taking continuous psychic damage from what people think is a "war crime"

The actual real world laws of armed conflict are a sort of type ii variety of forbidden knowledge

somewhat half-cocked theory: I still think *one* of the big reasons the NatSec Blob is turning against Israel is highly motivated by the hope of a grand alliance between the DSA types and NatSec Blob, one they believe has been stymied by our ties to Israel.

This hope is, needless to say, futile.

This hits the obvious problem of "what about the perceived overlap with Israeli civil society, much of which is more liberal than its government, or with Palestinian civil society & our obligations to them under liberal ideals?"

Ok. I think there's a valid case to make there.

What I am referring to is the wholesale destruction of Palestinians, a thing which is not going to (and must not) occur.

Why? I'm certainly not able to, and I don't think my personal feelings matter that much.

I think we're honestly circling the drain at this point. I encourage you to give this stuff some thought. That's all.

By the same token, *Palestine* isn't going anywhere; you cannot evict 7 million people without genocide and horror. Therefore any solution requires a mindset of "we are going to have to live with one another," and maintaining that as a possibility involves rejecting the impulse for collective hatred

Israel isn't going anywhere - that is just a factual truth. You cannot evict 10 million people from the only home many of them have ever known without overwhelming military force & unmitigated horror. Therefore the only path to justice for Palestine is one where Israel is still going to be there.

I do know what you mean, and I'm not trying to argue that point because it isn't my concern here. I am not trying to change your mind about Israel's actions in Gaza.

I am saying that getting emotionally invested can make it impossible to take the actions necessary to deescalate a conflict.

Not even an information war - that's an aspect but not the relevant detail here. I'm not saying anything about wanting you to support Israel. I'm saying that a steady diet of atrocity footage clouds the necessary detachment for sober judgment & emotionally invests the viewer in the struggle.

I used a big UNGA BUNGA weapon the first time, then the DLC's final reward for the new game +

that said, the thing is killing the puppet doesn't permakill it, but she WILL pause to spend some time healing it. start wailing on her then.

The hostages and massacres deliberately timed to a Jewish holy day are an obvious start. Before that we have the Second and First Intifadahs, just in my own lifetime.

Is there *parity*? Obviously not. But is there *grievance*? Obviously!

You found it productive, but it's still dangerous to someone's sense of perspective.

I mean let's be real here, do you think some Israelis aren't doing the same thing with lurid stories of Hamas' various grotesque crimes? and then using that to formulate a justification for atrocities?

The point of breaking a cycle of sectarian conflict is recognizing that everyone has been wronged and nobody is going to get the grand cathartic payback of the Perfidious Enemy they crave, long enough for the fever of sectarian hatred to break and people to start seeing each other as human again.

I can easily trot out the footage I directly saw of massacred Jews strewn all over the streets, terrified families murdered in their panic rooms and peace activists butchered just after they insist not to let their deaths be used to justify war, and hostages slowly starved.

That is how this works!

1: I'm American, not Israeli.
2: That's not how self-determination works, as a principle.
3: Yes, you have been essentially marinating in atrocity footage. Those atrocities are real and horrific. There's still a reason that professionals tell people not to do so in some attempt to "bear witness."

But ultimately these are two populations of millions who aren't going anywhere and are, at the end of the day, going to have to live together as neighbors in some form. The lie of sectarian grievance is that it promises a grand final defeat of the enemy that will never come.

What I think would be useful for you to remember is that everything you feel about "Zionists" is something reactionary Zionists feel about Hamas and Palestinian nationalists - they have no few grudges, historic atrocities to avenge, wrongs to redress. That's how a sectarian conflict works. (cont)

I don't know where you live, so I can't express anything but sympathy.

Instead I will say this: everyone in this conversation cares about Gaza. Everyone here wants Gaza reconstructed and its people to thrive. We are talking about obstacles to those goals, one of which is historical grudges.

Hm. Tricky. Markiona is a character I felt was best dealt with with big powerful blows.

I'm not trying to therapyspeak. I'm asking you a sincere question. You aren't *involved*. Why do you feel this strongly?

I mean, no, I think it's perfectly reasonable to oppose ethnic cleansing. I do. No few Israelis do.

That doesn't mean deciding you hate "all Israeli citizens." Hell, why assume that individual anecdotes of Israelis being shitty accurately reflect an entire populace of millions?

I have a PROBLEM with the settlements. Having a problem is not what you described above. What you described above was passionate, zealous, unhealthy hatred.

Ask yourself: why do I feel this way?

Furthermore: You assume I am ambivalent. I am not. You are mistaking a lack of hatred for ambivalence. Hatred is not useful here, and will help no one.

in all seriousness: what's your go-to weapon?

Seriously - I'm asking you this because I think you need to examine it yourself. Has Israel - a country of millions - wronged you personally? I'm assuming not, though I may be mistaken. If not, ask yourself why you feel this way, and who had a vested interest in making you feel it.

Pause.

Ask yourself if this is healthy, first off? Why do you hate Israel and all Israelis this much?

Use the specter. Abandon your pride.

A: Apparently not white enough for Nazis not to kill us.
B: You do understand that there were Jews across the Middle East who were already facing second-class status in their homes, were expelled from said homes & fled to Israel, and who now make up a significant portion of the Israeli right?

In fact, you especially need to account for their attitudes because they currently occupy a position of power and are the party who need to make the most concessions.